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Post by Katherine on Jan 23, 2015 18:14:05 GMT
This was a big point of discussion a couple years ago and I think it has fallen off as we have focused on other parts of the experience. In the Midwest, even though it only played for a little while one of the games that pushed for this the most was King's Crossroad and that immersion rule can be found here: www.heroicit.net/supplemental-rule-kings-crossroad-immersion-ruleHow much immersion would you like to see in the games you play? What sort of things would you change/fix? How would you improve upon what is here? Some areas that effect immersion and could be open discussion: 1. Costumes 2. Sets 3. Staying in-game 4. Out of game phrases/anachronisms 5. Props 6. Rules/Logistics |
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Vallum
Junior Member
Serving as Aasha's Bodyguard
Posts: 47 
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Post by Vallum on Jan 23, 2015 20:29:32 GMT
Sorry, this is long and rather stream of conscience. Please take this as feedback from a new player who will be around for a while. I don't have the history that you all do, and I know that means my words carry less weight. Thanks for starting the discussion, Katherine.
Immersion and physical activity are the things that separate LARP from tabletop. Yes, costumes, props, and location are a big difference, but all that is wrapped up in immersion. Immersion is the biggest draw to LARP for me, and quite frankly, I was disappointed that there wasn't more in my first couple events. I thought this was a game that stayed in character all weekend, and I found out that Heroic was just now different from any other game I've played. Perhaps I hyped up the game more in my mind (because my source of information was Larisa, and she could not be more flattering of the game and all its players!), and when you build your expectations that high, no game can meet them. It was just different from what I expected, and perhaps that's what you are talking about when you say, "I think it has fallen off," Katherine.
The burden lies heavily on the staff (which is often understaffed for various reasons, often uncontrollable). They set things up, they are examples of what they want out of a game, and they are the reason we wait for things to happen while they set up. We players can make the change though too. While we wait, we can role-play the journey to the destination and plan our attack. We can decide to stay in character as long as we want.
Yes, it's fun to get to know people OOC, and that's where the bonds that keep a game together are built. It's an interesting balance to achieve in any game, so it's good that Katherine brought up the discussion.
I guess this is a long way of saying I'm in favor of more immersion. That takes dedication from players to make it happen. I have seen fine role-playing, and I've seen lazy role-playing. Let's challenge each other to commit to the finer side of the spectrum.
-Andy
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Post by Katherine on Jan 23, 2015 21:12:10 GMT
No, thank you for getting involved in the discussion! Trust me, I know what it is to have high expectations and I think part of having high expectations we have to be willing to look at ourselves and see how we can make the game around us better.
Talking about the example of prep time for encounters (I know I am pulling a David by calling them encounters) that can happen. In the past, we worked on creating explicit accomplishable goals for example having encounters ready in a certain time frame (10-20 minutes depending) after initiated, with loot, NPCs properly repped and briefed. Would it be helpful to break down the different things that go into immersion and the different levels of preparedness and create goals for players AND staff to strive towards?
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Post by Katherine on Jan 23, 2015 21:26:13 GMT
I have been told that not everybody can access that King's Crossroad rule so I will be posting it here.
"King's Crossroad Immersion Rule
In the interest of keeping King's Crossroad as immersive as possible, all interactions for players will be kept as in game as possible. Once a player has signed in and received their character sheet, they will leave the out-of-game area for the entire Event. All further interactions, including resurrection, production, and modules will be handled within the in game environment and in an in game fashion. Though the mechanics for these interactions are published, it will be up to the characters to discover the place and the time in game. Modules will be presented as opportunities when they have been set up, and will run in appropriate areas of the site. If travel beyond the immediate in-game location is required, the module will occur in an area of the site designated for such a purpose. Such modules will begin with travel to the edge of the in-game area or, in the case of portals, caves, and other such entrances, characters who have passed into these areas will cross their arms over their chests, lower their heads and remain silent as they travel together from the in-game area to the location of the module.
Workspaces: The workspaces available in King's Crossroads are owned by the Imperial Guilds. A ranking Guild representative unlocks these workspaces according to a regular schedule. Check the Guild hall for times.
Resurrection: There are solemn places scattered throughout the Empire where gates can be build to link the Land of the Living with the Land of the Dead. Bringing the remains of a dead comrade to these places at the right time with a caster who knows this ritual is the only known way to restore life to the deceased. In King's Crossroad, players of dead characters continue to act as the corpse until their body is recovered. If a character finds themselves in a situation where they believe their body to be unrecoverable by their allies or if their body is utterly destroyed, they may choose to "take the high road." Their body will dissipate, and they may continue to reappear at the Gates accompanying a Spirit of Death, but their resurrection bag will contain an additional two black stones, greatly decreasing their odds of surviving resurrection.
Description Cards: In cases where plot cannot provide a detailed set for a location, they may put a bright pink card into play describing what is there instead. Certain Lores may provide additional information. A color-coded attachment will be with the card in these cases, and characters with the appropriate Lore and level may read these attachments. These cards often indicate a place where action will take place, if the characters are present at the proper time."
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Post by Aasha Cathmoore on Jan 23, 2015 22:25:05 GMT
Katherine, "Would it be helpful to break down the different things that go into immersion and the different levels of preparedness and create goals for players AND staff to strive towards?" --Yes, I think it would be helpful. I think we also need to think about (those of us with experience) to the times that we felt the most immersed. One time I can think of right now is: The trek into and claim of Dragon's Hearth (yes, I'm talking year 1, game 1, people!) "The Claiming of Dragon's Hearth" (Year 1, Game 1) Elements of Immersion Breakdown:What are the elements of thit example that make for the most immersion? 1. The players had their game faces on: best costumes, most consistent role-play. 2. Props were there and clear. If it wasn’t repped, it wasn’t there.3. We didn’t have time to be OOG. And if we did, we were committed to staying IG. Having an IG NPC “guide” there for us to ask IG questions to was helpful in this uncharted land, but I understand that is not always do-able or fun. 4. It was real time. There wasn’t lag. We kept moving. 5. What you see is what you get. ( WYSIWYG, aka "Wizzy-wig") 6. Monsters were clear. We didn’t have to wonder what just gacked us and get frustrated because something totally silently came out of the woods to bust on us. (Unless it’s specifically a silent monster, it needs to make some kind of noise when it pops!) 7. We had a mission, an objective. We knew when we’d reached it. And we were able to celebrate it. 8. The timing was good. It was long enough without being an overwhelming and un-fun marathon. We weren’t signing up for a hardcore mode 8 hour hike through the woods. (Which is ok too, just be super clear with players what they’re signing up for.) 9. We had time to role play as we went and we did. But, we had to keep our eyes open because it was a continuous mod. 10. The perimeters of the mod were clear. We had time to ask questions before we got started. We understood the OOG plan, and we didn’t have to call holds to have things explained. 11. PEOPLE LISTENED. When a scene was being described or actions were being worked through, PEOPLE LISTENED. We could hear what the marshal was saying without having to give 20 people dirty looks or yell at our friends to be quiet like we were in high school. 12. We worked together. If we hadn’t, we would have failed. 13. I was in character and I expected others to be so as well. Yes, there are always OOG jokes that can be made about something that just happened, but I’m not there to put on a comedy show OOG – when I keep my focus on being in character and being in game, I can LOL in my head about that stuff. The Claiming of Dragon’s Hearth, Narrative:
Before game, it was known that everyone would be off on a mod starring at X O’clock. If you came to do logistics after that, you would have to wait. (It was a reasonable time to accommodate travelers, but it was a hard stop. We generally had open logistics all the time, but for his experience, it was all in.) Most of our logistics needs we set up before game, so it was in and out. When we started the Dragon’s Hearth trek, we had all of our in game items on us. There were no wagons, there was no storage. And everything was repped – no loose tags. If that potion didn’t have a rep, you didn’t have that potion. IG and OOG exposition was given before the mod to explain things, certain effects, certain monsters that we would have known of IG, etc. We had an NPC “guide” with us that helped with the exposition and the drama of the situation. And then, it was on. I don’t recall there being a travel hold the couple hours that we went through trail, forest, stream. The NPC’s were in and out and whenever we got too quiet or comfortable, they’d strike. The roleplaying of the NPC’s was intentional and easily identified so we were able to determine ‘Ok, this is a wave of goblins coming at us’ and ‘Alright, we just stumbled upon a lizard-man den’ and ‘WTF bandits are out here? We didn’t have any reports of bandits?!’ We didn’t have to ask them “what do I see?” and try to be heard over already-ensuing combat. They knew it was dark and we wouldn’t be able to see them, but they wore makeup, costumes and masks anyway so that when the sliver of moonlight peaked through the trees, we got a good glimpse of what we were facing, and had that image the next time we heard that chitter or squeak coming through the trees at us. Everyone was in game. We didn’t have time NOT to be in game. It was the first game of the campaign, so everyone brought their best costumes (“best” does not always mean fancy, we knew we were going to be trekking IG and OOG through woods, fields, etc. to stake our claim), their most intense role play and worked from minute one to make character connections. For a couple hours we traveled until we got to the spot that we would claim as the town. In game, there was literally nothing there of substance, a few tents and shacks. We had to get with plot to tell them our plans for the night and how we were going to stake claim and fortify. It wasn't until the afternoon the next day, sitting around a fire, that we decided together to name the town Dragon’s Hearth. What you saw, was what you saw. If there was a bridge, you really IG went over a bridge. If there was a field, it was really a field. If it was not supposed to be a field, it would have setting and props in it and a very detailed description upon entering it. It was only a few hours (not 6, 8 or 12) but we were in it. We didn’t take breaks. I pee’d in the woods and had someone stand guard so I didn’t get gacked. We used resources and had a real threat of not making it at times. I'll think of more really immersive IG times, especially ones that were player-driven vs. plot driven. (Immersion is not just plot's job, folks!  ) |
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Post by Aasha Cathmoore on Jan 23, 2015 22:58:37 GMT
Time 2 Immersion Example: Raven Company – Silver’s Glory, July 2014
The elements that made it easier to be immersed: 1. It was self directed. If we hadn’t cared, we would have just slept in a cabin and called it good. 2. It was intrinsic. There was no outside reward for what we did. We didn’t do it to get rewarded, but it would have been cool to get a little achievement or something (Achievement Unlocked: Most B.A. refuge camp ever!) But people were complimentary, etc. which was nice. 3. We were in some sort of costume.As much as possible, even though it was hot. (I even wore my ears like a good girl!) 4. We stayed in character. And our characters were at least interesting to us as well as each other, and were distinct. 5. We were working together.Trading information and goods. We were concerned with the story and building our faction – not about being the biggest badass on the field. Whatever plot we got, unless it was specifically personal-personal secret plot, we tried to share with others as much as possible to create connections. 6. We were in the moment. You want to kick it in the baby pool? Kick it IG in the baby pool. You want to blow someone up with your mad spirit column? Go for it. 7. We had mood and setting going on in our area. When you got close, you knew where you were and who it belonged to. What you saw was what you got. If it wasn’t repped – it wasn’t there. 8. Not about the power game:We were willing to do “stupid shit” or things that didn’t make sense in a power-game way because we were playing our characters. 9. I was with friends! We enjoyed hanging out with each other IG and OOG. 10. Everyone was genuinely trying to get along and give each other the benefit of the doubt OOG.
11. We all were invested in and interested in our own characters and each other's characters. Raven's Company Immersion, Narrative:
*Note: This was one of the first events I'd been able to play an entire weekend at in years. It was also one of the first times I'd seen my buddies Jake, James and Tory in years -- so there could have been potential for mad OOG lulz and catch up. Also, there were lots of new players in the group that I could have easily been distracted into talking OOG with.* There was no IG benefit to this group of player’s to spend money, thrift shop, pack heavy, arrive early to set up, stay late to take down. But it was seriously one of the best times I’ve ever had IG and OOG at a game. We had been working for weeks on the forums in our private folder (just us, no plot involvement) getting the organization of the group together. Working on heraldry, back stories, ranks for the group, etc. Our camp ended up cooler than I ever thought it would! Torches, pavilion, lights, baby pool, table with props on it, our Orc refuge camp next to us. When we weren’t out modding, we were kicking it at the camp IG. I got to talk to Tory and James, Jake and everyone more IG at that one event than I had in years. (We had a teeny bit of OOG, but for 95% of it, we were IG.) We invited people to sit with us, we brought folks out there to meet with us. I did IG laundry. (My husband can tell you that I don't even really do OOG laundry.) I was a super fan of being close to the tavern of course were there was A/C and where I could bustle about and pick up trash and generally help in the tavern, but I could retreat to camp. You KNOW you’re immersed when you feel real OOG emotion (When I saw Archibald rolling up in “human” form to the tavern, I was nervous and excited all at once and tried to make sure everyone knew it was him.) And you KNOW you’re immersed when you run out of a baby pool (Jake!) and almost power slide through the tavern slinging spells moments later when shit’s going down! It reminded me that taking game seriously does not always mean being serious. We had lulz, but they were IG lulz! A friend just said that they're immersed every time they hit the field because they make that choice to be immersed and IG. I agree. But I also agree that there are factors (the "elements" that I've described in both scenarios) that make it easier to be immersed for the long haul.
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Post by Aasha Cathmoore on Jan 23, 2015 23:20:52 GMT
Ok, last post before I shush and let others play (and get to go fabric shopping and have Chinese, yay!) What I think are Contributing Factors to Immersion
- #1 -- Personal choice to be immersed for the duration
- Keeping others accountable for being IG and immersed
- Costuming and makeup for yourself, monsters, NPC's, helping other players with costuming and makeup if possible
- Personal props to depict your character (books if you're a scribe, treasure chests, hammer and anvil)
- Decorating your own IG area (whether it is a part of the tavern, outside of the main area, a group camp, a cabin, or where you are actually sleeping)
- Helping to decorate other IG areas
- Being invested in your character
- Viewing events and making decisions from the perspective of your character regardless of what the "power play" would dictate
- Music, lights, sound (or absence of!)
- Making a choice to suspend disbelief
- Actively and attentively listening to setting descriptions by plot and others,
- Having elements that make a character distinct from you (personality, voice, dress, mannerisms)
- Personalized reps for items (if someone found it laying in the field, would they know it's yours? Is your theme green leaves with orange thorns, and that's all over your gear too? Do you wear and represent house or guild colors that you can put on your gear?)
- Understanding your character's personality, motivations, likes and dislikes, motivations
- Being able to roll with the punches and improv
- Knowing when you need to take a time out to rest or shake it off, instead of taking others OOG with you, go to a designated OOG spot, or take yourself OOG for a bit so that you can represent your best RP when you're "on"
- Be more into the story than winning
- When in doubt, rep it out! Rep everything. A rep is always cooler than just a tag.
- Take things seriously, but still have fun!
Cheers!
Larisa
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Post by Tyexalted on Jan 24, 2015 1:41:18 GMT
I enjoyed a lot of the immersion in King's Crossroad, and I think Larisa hits many of the points on the head. It truly takes setting ones mind to it, as well as a group effort to make immersion as best as it can be.
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Vallum
Junior Member
Serving as Aasha's Bodyguard
Posts: 47
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Post by Vallum on Jan 24, 2015 1:57:25 GMT
Amen. Yeah, Larisa's list is pretty darn comprehensive. That Silver's Glory camp and the shop Joe and them set up inside the Tavern was awesome! Also, the scene in Silver's Glory when we had to crawl through the beds like they were tunnels was a very immerse scene. I was mostly trying to help from outside, but it was still a great scene.
How do we work to make all this stuff happen?
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Post by mathias on Jan 24, 2015 3:56:00 GMT
This is a tricky topic. I think that immersion falls on the individual. You do what it takes to make yourself feel immersed. It doesn't just fall on plot, npcs, npls, veterans or newbies. There are moments when I feel totally immersed and then there are times where I'm fighting hot sweaty nerds in costumes.
Having played at all chapters I feel that we of the midwest do an excellent job. The anachronisms and out of game talk has really gone down over the years. Costuming and props have improved. I know that we the gypsies push ourselves to excel at ingame atmospheres and develop our culture.
Perhaps the biggest example of immersion that I experienced was the death of Sir Cloch Cathmoore of the Clan Kinallen. For sometime I was looking to end his story in a truly epic way. I worked with plot teams and they worked with me, (Sebastian made a prop for my head!)
When the time came there was a bit of wait for the 'scene' to be set up. I took this time to say good bye to some people. It was an emotional moment as Cloch slowly took his armor off and discussed with Crum his important role in the Clan once Cloch was gone. I then spoke to Gilliante and gave him what money I had as I had sworn a dwarven oath to pay him a certain amount as was going to be unable to fulfill it now. Everyone I spoke to said that I didn't need to do this. I as a player knew that this is what needed to happen. Cloch was a noble who was sacrificing himself to save thousands and this was the best way to end his story.
Gilliante escorted me to the gnoll encampment at I was in awe. Everybody at the event was in full gnoll makeup and clothing so as to show the great number of enemies there.
What made this great was the emotions of the players whose characters had formed strong bonds throughout events.
The number of gnolls (as opposed to three npcs who represent 300 and pop continually)
Another great moment was when the gypsies held a ceremony to bring an outsider into our family. Once again plot worked with us so we would not be interrupted. We had special effects, music, fire and what made it especially memorable is that we were all there. Every player who was a part of two tribes was present.
I'm really just rambling on right now. I guess my point is that there isn't any one thing that can be done. We will always fight monsters that are people in tabards with foam swords. It is what you as the individual feels will help make it more in depth.
In the meantime, get more people (I want to have all fifty gnolls fighting me at once) better makeup and costuming (That means shoes too!) better roleplaying (YOU GOT HIT BY A FIRE BALL FEEL THE BURN!) less pop cans and gatorade bottles. And can we do something about all the damn cars?!
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Post by mathias on Jan 24, 2015 6:19:49 GMT
PUZZLES! I totally forgot about puzzles! Ya know the really hard ones that the tinkerer can't figure out and then we break the rules and let people without the appropriate skill give them a try. Meanwhile a few people wander off to get a drink of water and the npcs who are waiting behind that door fall asleep. It gets so late at night that some people just go to bed while that steadfast few continue to work on the puzzle.
Puzzle break the immersion...
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Post by Gilliante on Jan 24, 2015 7:49:27 GMT
Immersion... Hmmmmm... I'd have to say the most I felt immersion I have felt was when Gilliante' was on the bane dead line and we were being assaulted by all kinds of super nasty greater undead, we were holding the line, we were doing great, suddenly someone comes running and says there's two people down in the tavern... Well I just had a moment... Dale stopped thinking for himself and Gilliante' just straight took over and I hauled balls to the tavern, breaking our line, cause I knew who was in the tavern... it ended up working in the lines favor cause the undead turned to chase me and got mauled by the other players, but it easily could have ended in a bunch of deaths, I get to the tavern just in time to see Cassandra and Panther both dissipate... and there's a Death Knight, laughing at me... that bastard, I just lost it and went bat shit crazy on him, unloading spell after spell, the fight went out into the field and suddenly this Death knight dropped a circle around himself... I was walking around the circle and even laughing at him cause I realized at that point I just put a freaking a deathknight in his place.... He starts in with "I can just keep casting these" and Gilliante' was all like "and I can wait as long as I need toooo" finally he dropped the circle and tried to run off, and I planted a destroy undead in his back and he crumbled.
Due to the way I was immersed in that scene, I made soooo many choices that should have totally killed me and the entire town really, but it was the immersion that ultimately made this story end in a victory, it was the "never die" attitude of my character, it was the connection IG I had with Panther and Cassandra that made me stay and risk it all (which very well could have permed me), it was all of that.
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Post by elowenalloway on Jan 24, 2015 15:04:24 GMT
Yeeeah! Great examples Matt and Dale. ☺
What concrete steps can we all start taking to bring this to game?
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Post by Katherine on Jan 24, 2015 23:04:22 GMT
Also, what would players like to see staff doing to support this immersion and what are they willing to do to help this process happen?
Example: Players would like if check in time was quicker. In return, they messaged logistics with their character updates a week before the event.
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Vallum
Junior Member
Serving as Aasha's Bodyguard
Posts: 47
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Post by Vallum on Jan 25, 2015 2:26:28 GMT
Staff has to be responsive in order to do that, Katherine. For many legitimate reasons, that's not always the case.
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